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Introduction [00:00:05] Now this is recording, RTI International Center for Forensic Science presents Just Science.

Voiceover [00:00:19] Welcome to Just Science, a podcast for justice professionals and anyone interested in learning more about forensic science, innovative technology, current research, and actionable strategies to improve the criminal justice system. In the final episode of our 2022 Sexual Assault Awareness Month mini season, Just Science sat down with Natasha Alexenko, a sexual assault survivor, advocate, author, and founder of Natasha's Justice Project, to discuss advocacy for vulnerable populations and trauma-informed approaches to sexual assault. As a sexual assault survivor and advocate, Natasha Alexenko has dedicated her career to improving the lives of sexual assault survivors. She has worked both nationally and internationally to discuss past, present, and future directions for an improved response to sexual assault. Listen along as she discusses sexual assault response reform and her recent trauma-informed advocacy efforts with refugees and Native American populations. This episode is funded by the National Institute of Justice's Forensic Technology Center of Excellence. Some content in this podcast may be considered sensitive and may evoke emotional responses or may not be appropriate for younger audiences. Here's your host, Tyler Raible.

Tyler Raible [00:01:23] Hello and welcome to Just Science. I'm your host, Tyler Raible with the Forensic Technology Center of Excellence, a program of the National Institute of Justice. April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month, and in honor of this campaign, we're releasing episodes specific to current topics and issues in this arena. To help guide us in conversation, I'm joined today by our guest, Natasha Alexenko, creator of Natasha's Justice Project, a sexual assault advocate, survivor, and author. Natasha, it's great to have you back on the show. How are you?

Natasha Alexenko [00:01:50] I'm doing well, Tyler. It's good to be back.

Tyler Raible [00:01:53] Natasha, you've been a guest on Just Science before, and, you know, it's always just great to see you. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Natasha Alexenko [00:01:59] I'm a survivor of sexual assault. I also like to say I'm a survivor of the rape kit backlog. I was assaulted at gunpoint by a stranger when I was a college student in New York City. I did a rape kit afterwards - I went to the hospital. It really probably was the last thing I wanted to do - I just wanted to take a hot shower - but I did do a rape kit. I was urged by my roommates to do so. I cooperated with law enforcement. At that point in my life, I just wanted to make sure that this dangerous person was taken off the streets and unable to harm others. In a state of trauma, it's often difficult to recollect the details, but I did the best I could, and unbeknownst to me, my rape kit remained unprocessed, collecting dust in a storage facility for nearly a decade. In the interim, we didn't catch the man that assaulted me at that time, and I blamed myself. My memory recall was so poor - I assumed my rape kit was tested - so I thought my description of the events and the man that raped me weren't accurate enough. So I blamed myself in the interim, and I grappled with guilt, blaming myself for other victims. It was really difficult to heal because of that. My rape kit was eventually tested nearly ten years later. We did what's called a John Doe indictment - in order to stop the clock on the statute of limitations, we indicted the DNA in my rape kit. So ten years after the fact, the kit was tested. In 2008, there was a match in CODIS to the man that assaulted me. He was a career criminal. He

committed crimes across the country. He harmed others across the country. He was a one-man crime spree and a public safety hazard, but we did find him. I'm very fortunate to have received justice in my case. He is presently behind bars where he can harm no other individuals. I never wanted to take for granted the justice I received. I didn't want to be an anomaly. I wanted to use my story as best as I could to articulate what healing was, the value of processing rape kits for survivors and also for the public at large for public safety. I published a book about my experiences, and I've had an opportunity to speak across the country, to work on legislative measures across the country addressing rape kit reform, addressing sexual assault reform, and also just being able to speak before Congress, Senate, and most importantly, to other survivors and get to meet with them across the country. And so it has been quite a journey.

Tyler Raible [00:04:49] Last year, I sat down and read your book, A Survivor's Journey: From Victim to Advocate. What made you decide to write a book?

Natasha Alexenko [00:04:56] Well, I think that, you know, any time I had an opportunity to speak, it was really difficult to hit all the points. And I really, really wanted to let everyone know my story, my journey, just kind of like in more of an intimate kind of portrayal of what happened to me. And I wanted to be really honest about what it was like going through the process of healing. I wanted it to be raw. And I wanted to honor the survivors that I had met and the questions they were asking me. You know, after I would get up and speak at a school, you know, survivors had generally the same questions for me, and I never really had an opportunity to articulate all of that when, when I'm speaking. So I wanted to be sure that I hit all the questions I was being asked, to be open and honest, because there are so many questions asked behind closed doors that we just don't talk about. I think it's important for survivors to know there's nothing to be ashamed of and that it's okay to be open. We did nothing wrong. And also kind of get that feedback for myself too, that when we all are in different stages of healing, and healing isn't something that happens overnight. I'm still healing now. I still have my days. I still have my moments. And I think that what's helped me along the journey is not only articulating what happened to me and finding catharsis in that process, but also connecting with others and seeing that I'm not alone in some of the emotions, some of the feelings, some of the challenges I have. It's really empowering to know there's others out there whose feelings and hopes and dreams are so similar to mine. I just really honored every time I'm in touch with someone.

Tyler Raible [00:06:37] And that makes perfect sense. I could see where the sense of community that would be created through this very, very personal account. You're also the creator of your own nonprofit, Natasha's Justice Project. So could you tell us a little bit about Natasha's Justice?

Natasha Alexenko [00:06:51] I started Natasha's Justice Project in 2011, and it's really changed and evolved to kind of suit where we are in terms of processing backlogged rape kits. And that was really what it was about. You know, its impetus was to really educate, to get the word out there. You know, in 2011, not many people were aware of the fact that there were unprocessed rape kits, that there was a rape kit backlog. You know, any time I talked about it, people would just be shocked and say, how is this possible? And I thought it was really important to get the word out. Certainly, law enforcement was aware of it. Prosecutors were aware of it, but the general public was not. And I really set it up with a group of others to just use it for educational purposes and find out how we could assist jurisdictions throughout the country that were facing issues with unprocessed rape kits, like find out how could we help them? What funding was out there? We had funding to process kits that were sitting in labs. We had funding for labs. But how do we get funding to kits like

mine that weren't at a laboratory, that had not made it to a lab yet - they were still sitting in storage. So advocating for that, really fortunate to have funding streams that are now dedicated to that and a public that is aware of unprocessed rape kits. So presently NJP really has evolved into something that just ensures that every state has legislative measures in place to address backlogged rape kits and to support survivors. For example, you know, I worked recently with the California Senate on a legislation that will give transparency so survivors can track their rape kits in the process. They can be aware- made aware of where their kits are - have they made it out of the hospital or are they at the laboratory, are they still in law enforcement? So they could really kind of watch the process unfold. So Natasha's Justice Project presently is really working towards that, more the legislative measures.

Tyler Raible [00:08:57] And, Natasha, you've mentioned that you consider yourself a survivor of sexual assault, but also a survivor of the sexual assault kit backlog. And I know that that's kind of the driving force behind NJP, Natasha's Justice Project. So I guess I'm just trying to get your- get your, your thoughts. What are the thoughts on the backlog? Are we making progress in addressing it and on a national scale?

Natasha Alexenko [00:09:21] I see a tremendous difference in processing of sexual assault evidence kits since 2011. It is remarkable and there's certainly a lot of room for improvement. And I think that it was really the catalyst kind of creating other- recognizing there are other issues, right. So the fact that the sexual assault evidence kit backlog, it was just really kind of like the tip of an iceberg, recognizing what else was involved in that. Well, are we addressing trauma in survivors? Are we recognizing what that looks like? Is that why some of these kits weren't processed? Was law enforcement perhaps not trained appropriately when dealing with survivors? Are practices survivor centered? So it was really kind of the catalyst for a host of other issues that needed to be addressed in order to fix the backlog of rape kits. You could send all these sexual assault evidence kits off to a lab and test them all. But it's just going to occur again if you don't address the reasons behind why it began in the first place. But you're now have this multidisciplinary team that's tackling the issue and they're vital to the process and people are recognizing how important it is and the things that are necessary in order to process rape kits.

Tyler Raible [00:10:47] One of the recurring themes on, on the podcast when it comes to sexual assault response reform has always been improvements. How do we do better? And I hear often that we are improving. I know that you provide training and expertise on trauma-informed interactions with survivors, and you had mentioned that that's part of the areas that we're still focusing on, is making sure that the people interacting with survivors have the tools that they need to be successful in the position. So could you tell us maybe a little bit about this training? You know, what's the experience like? What's the response like from law enforcement?

Natasha Alexenko [00:11:23] I think that it's- it's so essential because we were hearing when we had these unprocessed kits that a lot of times there was kind of an assumption that every victim is going to look this way, is going to come and be crying, is going to be hysterical in tears. That's not always the case. Trauma looks different. It looks different in everyone. And it's essential that that is something that's recognized as we move forward. You can't really have a victim or a survivor centered approach without including a trauma-informed approach. They have to coincide with one another. Trauma is something that needs to be recognized in the entire process. And it's really interesting because, you know, as I've, you know, continued my work and some of the work that I do globally on gender-based violence, you know, we always look at this, whether you're looking at sexual

assault survivors, looking at survivors of domestic violence, these are all things that we need to recognize because when we work with people, if we don't have an understanding of the feelings that someone might be going through, the emotions, then it's- it's really not as powerful. We're not going to reach them in the same way if we don't approach them from the perspective of someone who is informed in understanding trauma.

Tyler Raible [00:12:45] Natasha, you mentioned some global work. Tell me what's going on, what's happening with that?

Natasha Alexenko [00:12:49] So, yes, so I've been working globally with a group called Voice and we have just done some amazing things with major global organizations, whether we are designing their policy for sexual assault reform internally, how they approach others. Also a lot of work around gender-based violence, particularly among refugee populations, which presently is something that the world is focused on right now. And just kind of applying trauma-informed, victim-centered approaches to how we deal with individuals being served by these global entities, making certain that staff members are sensitive to the needs of the survivor, whether they're a sexual assault survivor, whether they're a survivor of domestic violence, and understanding, they're- they're just not a number. They're a human being. And what you say and your interactions can change their lives. I really felt honored to kind of bring some of what we've learned here in the United States, and really because it's been an evolution, right? Like it's really evolved from 2011 and taking that and applying it to situations that are occurring globally. And then also cross-pollinating that because there are, there are things that we've learned globally among refugee populations, among survivors of calamities that we can bring into sexual assault and how we're approaching survivors because there's a lot of data that we can bring in, but there's also human stories which are way more important than any data can ever relay. So that's been really exciting to just kind of be a witness to this idea of cross-pollination and bring what I've learned in the United States globally.

Tyler Raible [00:14:43] I am just kind of struck by curiosity. What are your impressions of sexual assault response at an international level? On the show, we have a pretty good idea of what it looks like within the United States, but I was hoping to get kind of your perspective on a global response.

Natasha Alexenko [00:14:57] One thing that was really striking to me, in the United States, each state has its own set of laws and regulations that you kind of have to go through, especially when we are talking about sexual assault kit reform, right. So you kind of have to navigate through each state almost operates as its own country in certain ways. You know, globally that, that is just kind of multiplied over. So it's always a challenge as you're working in different countries to kind of work that in and understand where they're coming from, not only their laws and procedures, but just culturally how things can kind of differ. Even things like confidentiality, like here in the United States, if- if I disclose I've been assaulted, there's not necessarily a rule that's going to say, no, we have to have your name out there. And so that's kind of been a challenge, is- is how to kind of work around situations where disclosure is mandatory. But it's also a good way to kind of, again, utilize what we've learned and be able to say, well, this is why confidentiality is important, why we put survivors first in every circumstance. We want to encourage reporting. You know, we have found statistically that areas where privacy, where confidentiality is taken out of the equation, there is less of a chance of someone coming forward and talking about it and the value behind that. It's interesting, you know, while countries and the way they approach sexual assault may vary, not everyone, for example, trauma-informed is fairly new concept globally. What is the same is trauma and survivors - how it affects not only their lives, but

their lives of the communities in which they live. The things that encourage survivors to report are the same. Trust, understanding - those things are universal, are global - communities, public safety. All of those things are the same. In my situation, one thing that was really something I recognize in myself is, you know, I was in a very fortunate situation. I had support from family, support from friends. I had a good relationship with law enforcement. And that is not the same in every case. Absolutely far from the truth, and certainly globally that's even multiplied, especially in survivors in areas of conflict.

Tyler Raible [00:17:16] Yeah, I don't think there's any way we could really understate the value of a support network. So what strikes me is when we're talking about groups of people who are displaced, when we're working with refugees. So what exactly are you doing with these, with these displaced peoples?

Natasha Alexenko [00:17:30] Well, certainly recognizing and trying to get an informed analysis of how countries that are accepting refugees, how they're approaching them as they enter into a new country. Are they recognizing signs of trauma? How are they prioritizing that, especially with COVID? So, you know, we had a lot of situations where if you have refugees coming in from another country, families are kept together because of COVID, and they're isolated in quarantine. And sometimes those families, that's not like a healthy family unit. There's domestic violence occurring. And that can be exasperated by the quarantine process, by the process of keeping these people close together. They've already come from a traumatic situation. So ensuring that countries are prioritizing that in that situation. I just actually did some work in Canada, and domestic violence is the number one priority, COVID is secondary - if they do see signs of that occurring in populations that are entering the country, and from the refugees I've spoken to that have been welcomed in that manner with that trauma-informed approach as they've been brought in, it's just been a great experience. I mean, they- they've just gone through such a tremendous ordeal. It's very emotional. They've lost everything. They're coming to a new country with a new language. And at the very least, we can respect where they're coming from and recognize they may be safe now from the country they're fleeing from, but how do we make sure they're safe here, too?

Tyler Raible [00:19:05] I love the concept of taking lessons learned from one area and putting them towards another. And, you know, on Just Science, we're huge fans of taking research and theory into practice. And the fact that we get to see this theory both, you know, applied to sexual assault response but also into other humanitarian efforts is remarkable because I know that on top of all of the other stuff you're doing, you're also involved in supporting sexual assault response reform for Native American women. How did that get started?

Natasha Alexenko [00:19:36] If you could just see for a minute the other people working on this, like, I feel like I never do enough. It's impossible to stop when you just meet people who are just working so hard. And I have to say, I'm such a novice at this experience of helping globally, helping Native American women. I'm like a novice, and I recognize kind of my infancy in this process. And I'm grateful that people are, like, open to me helping. But yeah, presently, I'm working with this amazing group called Strengthening Nations, and we're working together. We're doing a survey right now speaking to groups that are serving Native American women and girls and finding out what their constraints were during COVID. Did they have enough access to PPE? Did they feel safe? How was staffing? Finding out what was missing because COVID, we learned a lot of lessons during the process and we really wanted to kind of gauge historically what we did right, what we did wrong, and what we can do should another crisis occur, and heaven forbid it does, but

I think that we can take a lot of the lessons we learned during COVID to be able to apply it elsewhere. And I think that when I started this journey and disclosed as a sexual assault survivor and did a lot of speaking, I really heard the stories from other survivors who didn't have the opportunity to speak like I did. And I think that the time has come for their voices to be amplified and for me to take on a more supportive role in supporting survivors of sexual assault, domestic violence in any way that I can. So, you know, I'm kind of behind the scenes writing toolkits and, you know, literature reviews and proposals and policies. So I don't take what I do lightly.

Tyler Raible [00:21:31] With all of the time that you dedicate to supporting others, into helping others, what do you find most rewarding about all of the work that you're doing?

Natasha Alexenko [00:21:39] Honestly, it's the people. It really is. I mean, I think that just meeting people and learning from them and just being inspired by everyone in this field that genuinely does this altruistically. No one's in this for the big bucks. I mean, not that I know of. I think we're just all kind of built out of the same stuff where we're just very mission oriented, very driven. And that's the thing that just everyone kind of keeps me on my toes, whether it's the populations we serve or my colleagues at Voice. Those are the people, right, that just kind of make you just strive to be a better person and, you know, recognize your faults. Like, sometimes I feel like my faults are under a bigger microscope just because I'm surrounded by these brilliant people with so much experience. They just keep me motivated. And I'm also very mindful of, of where I came from. And I'm mindful of what I've learned in the process, the mistakes I've made. As a survivor, I was trying to kind of push my way in because there's all these experts and I'm like but listen to me. And, you know, it took me a few years to say, okay, let's take it down a notch and just listen and give the floor to people who are the experts, but also find a way to have my voice included in there, right. There's a happy medium between taking over and sitting back completely of having your voice included and at the time when it's most needed and most necessary.

Tyler Raible [00:23:13] Yeah, I think the importance of having a seat at the table for survivors is the utmost importance, right. And Natasha, I agree with you in that the investigators, the law enforcement, the advocates, the policy makers, the prosecutors, everybody is so inspirational. And as we're- as we're getting ready to wrap up the episode, I want to know, as a survivor, what does Sexual Assault Awareness Month mean to you?

Natasha Alexenko [00:23:38] Well, it is just such an important month. And what it means to me now is to really listen to the voices of sexual assault survivors who don't get a chance to speak, who are unable to speak, recognize that they're there, recognize how valuable they are, and also understand that not every sexual assault survivor is at a place in their life, nor should they be, where they want to talk about their assault. And that's okay, too. And I think Sexual Assault Awareness Month for me is a way to articulate to survivors everywhere that we're all one unit together supporting each other - different places in our journey, but there and listening and growing. I hope that this year I have noticed just with everything going on, it's so hard for Sexual Assault Awareness Month to take a priority. And I know there's so much going on right now, but I think that it's such an important time to reflect that sexual assault is still happening. It's still out there. And, you know, I think that it shouldn't be something that is a trend that comes in and out of the news media, and now everyone's interested in it and now no one else is, because it happens every second of every day. I think that when we take in a month like April and just kind of offhandedly talk about it without doing things like you're doing right now, where we're having these discussions and dialogues and learning, we're not going to get any farther. And, you know, the goal of Sexual Assault Awareness Month, yes, is to recognize

survivors, recognize that we're not alone, but also think about ways that we work towards, you know, eliminating sexual assault. The backlog, as we discussed, was just really the tip of an iceberg. There's a bigger issue at hand. I mean, it was a symptom, right? Unprocessed sexual assault evidence kits are a symptom of a larger disease, a pervasive one, one that we need to tackle. We can't just treat symptoms. So I really hope that this April, we focus and work towards a world where people aren't afraid.

Tyler Raible [00:25:47] That's one of the things that I love about being part of this podcast and the work that I've done with the Forensic Technology Center of Excellence is that we, we have this opportunity to give platforms to the people who are out doing the work on the front line. So it's a powerful month. Natasha, any final thoughts that you want to share with our listeners? This has been just such a wonderful conversation.

Natasha Alexenko [00:26:06] I hope we can continue these conversations, and I hope that we continue to bring survivors into the conversation. I think that our voices are so valuable. And it's not just my voice. My voice is one tiny one in a giant sea of amazing people out there who have stories that are unique and important and valuable and very, very much a part of sexual assault reform. You cannot do this without the survivors. You can collect data and do research, and that's all well and good, but these personal interactions, these personal stories are really what's going to make a big difference, not only in change as we move forward, because I think voices are vital for that reason, but it really changes minds, people's minds, the way we interact with a survivor, we need those personal stories. Date- reading data and research report and literature reviews are wonderful but hearing personal stories that affirm everything that we've learned and even teach us things that we didn't know before, that is what is going to be the catalyst to change.

Tyler Raible [00:27:15] What an excellent way to end. Natasha, thank you for sitting down with Just Science and for all of the incredible work that you do all year round, not just in April.

Natasha Alexenko [00:27:25] Thank you so much for having me on here. I always enjoy my time with you.

Tyler Raible [00:27:29] And for those of you listening at home, on your drive, if you've enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to like and follow Just Science on your podcast platform of choice. For more information on today's topic and resources in the forensic field, remember to visit ForensicCOE.org. I'm Tyler Raible, and this has been another episode of Just Science.

Voiceover [00:27:50] This episode concludes our 2022 Sexual Assault Awareness Month mini season. Tune in for the next season of Just Science, which will cover various topics on the Forensic Science Education Programs Accreditation Commission. Opinions or points of views expressed in this podcast represent a consensus of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official position or policies of its funding.

Introduction [00:00:05] Now this is recording, RTI International Center for Forensic Science presents Just Science.

Voiceover [00:00:18] Welcome to Just Science, a podcast for justice professionals and anyone interested in learning more about forensic science, innovative technology, current research, and actionable strategies to improve the criminal justice system. In episode one of our 2022 Sexual Assault Awareness Month mini season, Just Science sat down with Mary Weston, the Assistant Prosecuting Attorney, Supervisor of the Cold Case Unit, and Project Manager of the Sexual Assault Kit Task Force at Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's Office to discuss sexual assault response with vulnerable populations. Different challenges may arise when prosecuting sexual assault cases involving vulnerable populations, including cases with male victims. Listen along as Mary Weston discusses strategies for effective prosecution of cases with male victims, provides rationales for why members of vulnerable populations may be targeted for sexual assault, and presents considerations for the safety, healing, and well-being of survivors. This episode is funded by the National Institute of Justice's Forensic Technology Center of Excellence. Some content in this podcast may be considered sensitive and may evoke emotional responses or may not be appropriate for younger audiences. Here's your host, Tyler Raible.

Tyler Raible [00:01:23] Hello and welcome to Just Science. I'm your host Tyler Raible with the Forensic Technology Center of Excellence, a program of the National Institute of Justice. April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month, and in honor of the month, we're sitting down with various subject matter experts to discuss emerging topics in the field of sexual assault response reform. To help guide us in our conversation today, I'm joined by our guest, Mary Weston, Assistant Prosecuting Attorney, Supervisor of the Cold Case Unit at the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's Office, and Project Manager of the Cuyahoga County Sexual Assault Kit Task Force. Mary, it's great to see you again. Welcome back to the show.

Mary Weston [00:01:53] Thank you so much for having me.

Tyler Raible [00:01:54] So, Mary, you've been on here before and you've spoken to us about topics like crossover offending, prosecution, and the state of the sexual assault kit backlog in Cuyahoga County. So Mary, you're a prosecutor and someone who's actively addressing, and frankly, improving the response to sexual assault in your community. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what a typical day might look like for you?

Mary Weston [00:02:16] Tyler, I am first and foremost a prosecutor. I've been a prosecutor since 2006, and since 2013 I have focused on prosecuting sex offenses. Our county was one of many counties across the nation that discovered untested sexual assault kits, primarily in the city of Cleveland. So starting in 2013, our office made a concerted effort to make resources available to test those kits, investigate those kits, and prosecute the leads that came from those investigations. So I was one of the very first prosecutors assigned to the task force in 2013. There were three of us at the time. As the years went on, I was prosecuting those cases in court, and we've gotten to a point in our county where we've tested all of our untested kits, and we're just dealing with the prosecutions at this point of that initial project. And at this point, I am now the supervisor of the task force, so I'm now more overseeing the prosecutions and the investigations - it's more management.

Tyler Raible [00:03:21] Mary, that's incredible. And the work that you all are doing is just fascinating and there's so much impact behind it. Can you tell us a little bit about what sexual assault response reform looks like in Cuyahoga County? Are there any achievements that you'd like to highlight or let our audience know about?

Mary Weston [00:03:35] Absolutely. It all started when there was a serial murderer actually who was identified here in Cleveland - number of bodies were found in his yard, Anthony Sowell was his name - and in the wake of that discovery, there were women that came forward and said that he had attacked them and that they had done what we expect women to do in that situation. They had reported it, and they complained that nothing had happened in their cases. They hadn't resulted in him being prosecuted. And you can imagine there was some outrage because families lost their loved ones who were murdered by this man because he was still out there on the streets. And so in the wake of that sort of outcry, like what happened with these women's cases, thousands of rape kits were discovered that had never even been submitted to the lab. It turns out we are not the only jurisdiction with this problem. It was nice to meet folks from other cities who also were lucky enough to benefit from DOJ SAKI funding later on - you know, originally, even prior to us receiving the SAKI funding, we realized we had an issue on our hands here in Cuyahoga County, and we put together a task force to combat it. Then we were lucky enough to get SAKI funding to add investigators, to add victim advocates, to make a whole team approach to looking at these cases, following up on all the DNA leads. I mean, when you test thousands of kits, you start getting leads like crazy in terms of CODIS hits and CODIS matches - you got to follow up on those. So all those kits from the original project have been tested. It resulted in over eight hundred new indictments because in Ohio, when we started in about 2012, 2013, we were only able to go back 20 years based on Ohio's statute of limitations for rape at the time. So we went back to 1993 - over eight hundred indictments to date. Prosecutions are still ongoing. But in terms of sexual assault reform, a lot of things changed in that time frame. We changed our statute of limitations for rape - now 25 years, it was 20 at the time. You know, do I wish there was no statute of limitations? Yes, but we were able to get an additional five years. And we were able to get a provision that says, even if you're beyond that 25 years, if you get a DNA lead, you get five years. So even if it's been 26 years, you still get five years to investigate that DNA lead. And that is huge. There were cases where we weren't able to follow up on leads because we were beyond the statute of limitations. But that won't be a problem anymore if you got a DNA hit like a CODIS hit. And I would say the other big reform was in Ohio was it's now law to test all kits and that's huge - testing every single kit, even if the perpetrator is known. It was a learning curve for me and a lot of people. You know, why- why would I test a kit where there's no question who the perpetrator is? And to learn because that DNA to a known individual may hit to another kit that was a stranger and solve stranger cases - that took some time to understand and get people on board with and Ohio passed that law. So we have done some good things here in Ohio.

Tyler Raible [00:06:33] You're doing some incredible things. It's obviously a huge effort, but it's an effort worth doing and it's really highlighting some palpable results. So Mary, I really want to dive in today because I want to make sure that we capitalize on our time together. You know, when we're discussing a topic like sexual assault, we often hear this term vulnerable populations kind of tossed around willy-nilly. I was hoping we could first kind of tie that down. What does the term vulnerable populations mean? And then why is it relevant to sexual assault cases?

Mary Weston [00:06:59] Vulnerable populations, to me, mean victims of sexual assault who are more likely to be targeted or victims of sexual assault crimes that are less likely to be prioritized in terms of investigations or prosecutions. And it's important and relevant to sexual assault response because sexual predators are targeting these individuals, and they're targeting these individuals because they feel that they are more likely to get away with the sexual assault of certain populations. And it's also important as a prosecutor and an investigator to know who the vulnerable populations are because those are probably most of your sexual assaults. That's probably where most of them are. You know, most of your sexual assaults are not the sexual assault of the people in the highest status in your jurisdiction. Predators are not selecting individuals that are going to be believed and are going to be prioritized. They are selecting individuals that will hopefully never even report the crime, or if they do report the crime may not be believed or won't be prioritized as a victim. So as a prosecutor and as investigators, you need to identify those vulnerable populations in your jurisdictions, know that that's where most of the rapes are happening, and that if you want to hold offenders accountable, that's where they're most likely going to be perpetrating.

Tyler Raible [00:08:23] So if it's not the people that are kind of a higher status, what are some of examples of vulnerable populations? What makes these groups vulnerable?

Mary Weston [00:08:30] Predators select people that are vulnerable because they want to get away with their crimes number one, right? So predators are not out there committing their crimes in front of a baseball stadium or in front of an audience. They certainly want to get away with it like all criminals do. So they are going to select people who number one maybe won't report the crime at all because it's just too embarrassing. Or maybe they don't even know what happened. Or maybe they realize it's too embarrassing to report. Or maybe they- the victim feels like they won't be believed. Maybe the victim doesn't even understand what happened to them. That could be- that's a vulnerability. So examples of these kinds of populations are sex workers. Right. So sex workers historically have not been believed when they report that they have been raped. There's a common rape myth that they're asking for it because they are operating this line of work. Historically, they have not been believed and they are targeted by sex predators. Another population is drug users, the mentally ill, our LGBTQ+ communities. So these are populations that may not be believed because of rape myths, may not be taken seriously, may not be prioritized, in terms of being mentally ill or on drugs may not even really understand what happened to them. May not know it's a crime. May not know it's wrong, so therefore may not report it or truly understand the gravity of what has happened to them.

Tyler Raible [00:09:55] I'm sure there are probably scores of other vulnerable populations as well, like elderly communities would fall into this category, too, right?

Mary Weston [00:10:02] Absolutely, Tyler.

Tyler Raible [00:10:04] Okay, so Mary, do you have any cases that involved a victim from a vulnerable population that you'd like to share?

Mary Weston [00:10:09] I can think of a few that really stand out to me. There was a defendant in our community named Stacey Belle. He was not known at the time, but we got some CODIS matches, meaning same male DNA in multiple sexual assault kits. As the task force investigated those cases, it was a similar M.O. in each of those cases. It was- it was always a female victim, and it was a victim who was looking to trade sex for drugs on the street and willing to do that with a stranger, right. So in each of these cases, the

woman was looking for crack cocaine. In each case, she was approached by a short black male with a bald head who offered to take her to a place where he knew he could get crack cocaine for them and that they would, you know, have sex in exchange for him obtaining the crack for them. When the victim agreed, he would take her to another location, which was usually an abandoned building - in one case, it was the basement of an abandoned building - and there was no crack to be had - at least he wasn't going to give our victim any - and then a forcible rape ensued. So all three of those cases were very, very similar, and they all came back to this guy, Stacey Belle. So he wanted a trial. I think he banked on the fact that these victims would not be believed. One of our victims was so unable to cope with what had happened to her, and because she was addicted to crack cocaine, after the rape and before going to the hospital, she had traded sex for drugs with another individual that did not assault her but that used a condom. So we were able to prevail at trial by trying all the cases together to show, really, this was Stacey Belle's M.O., right? This is what he does. His DNA was on all the cases, and that- since the DNA was so important, to show that it was his DNA and not, for instance, the male that one of our victims had been with sexually after the rape. And we were also, I think, able to prevail in that case because we had a narcotics detective that testified in that case to talk about his experience working closely with sex workers and drug addicts on the street. So he testified that in his experience, for instance, prostitutes or drug addicts are not interested in taking a couple of hours off the street to go to the hospital to submit to a sexual assault kit examination. They are, in his experience, they're even more behind than ever. They now just wasted an hour with somebody who they thought was going to get them drugs. Their top priority is to go get those drugs that they were originally looking for, or to make up the money that they thought they were going to get paid and didn't get paid. So that was important testimony to our trier of fact in that case, I believe, and it was also important that that narcotics detective was able to dispel myths about how drug users are able to perceive the world. So, for instance, there was some defense arguments or suggestion that hey, if these women are on crack cocaine, how can we believe anything they say, you know, they probably don't even know what's going on right in front of them. And this narcotics detective was able to testify to how savvy and street-smart drug addicts are, particularly crack addicts. So they're out there making their way through life and making it in the world, and they are perfectly able to tell him what's going on right in front of their very eyes. So that was important testimony, too. And that's just- that's just one case I can highlight that was very powerful, really, and as a prosecutor, I was proud to put that case on to say we are standing up for these kinds of victims. This guy totally thought he was going to get away with this. He thought those girls would never be believed. And instead, he's doing a life sentence now because he was found guilty of those crimes. The trier of fact was able to see what was going on, that this was his pattern. The focus was on him, whereas I believe, you know, he probably would have preferred the focus to be on the victims and their vulnerabilities, as we're saying, and their lifestyles.

Tyler Raible [00:13:55] It's great that you're able to put him away, but this sounds like it's a, I mean it's a really specific M.O. Part of the prosecution's job then, was kind of twofold, right? So it's- it's uncovering a pattern, and then also trying to overcome some of these maybe internal biases towards these vulnerable populations - is that fair to say or am I misreading that?

Mary Weston [00:14:15] No, I think that's absolutely fair to say - to educate your trier of fact, usually your juries, right - unless it's a judge deciding the case - but educating your trier of fact about these kinds of populations, the fact that they're being targeted and dispelling rape myths or just- or myths in general, like I just said the myth that drug users don't know what's going on in front of their faces. Well, that's a myth, right? So it's

something that most people don't know. Your jury may not understand that. So it's important to get somebody on the stand who does see that day to day, who's out there on the street talking to drug users, you know, arresting them, using them as informants. Cops are using drug users as informants because they can be trusted to obtain important information for them. So these kinds of people are important for gathering information and in assisting investigations, but they can also be victims of these crimes. In fact, they're more likely to be victims of these crimes for that very reason because they are out there on the street and accessible - I guess that's the best word - they are accessible to predators.

Tyler Raible [00:15:16] Yeah, I think accessibility is probably the driving factor there, huh?

Mary Weston [00:15:20] Absolutely.

Tyler Raible [00:15:21] Mary, you kind of hinted at this. Can you tell me a little bit about the role of educating in this capacity? Because it seems like that is a huge part of it, and you've kind of mentioned a couple of times, you know, with the value of having the narcotics officer come in and give a description and then trying to kind of dismantle these myths. So how does educating your audience really play into this?

Mary Weston [00:15:40] As a prosecutor, it starts with your jury selection. So as a prosecutor, you get a chance to usually talk to your jury during jury selection. You can ask them what they think are the typical sexual assault myths, you know, and juries know that someone will raise their hand and say, "Oh, if she was wearing a short skirt, she was asking for it." So this is a really old school myth, but that's what you're going to get with your juries. But you can turn that into a conversation about other kinds of myths, and you could have a conversation with your jury about the fact that predators want to get away with their crimes. So I usually will start by asking "Can we all agree that, you know, sexual predators or criminals are not likely to commit their crimes in front of an audience," and they'll all agree. But then you get into a conversation about why that is, you know, why are they not targeting, you know, the cream of the crop in terms of our populations? Why is that, and juries just sit- sitting there and talking about it will understand this all really comes down to predators wanting to get away with it. So who are they going to select? Who's the most accessible to them? Who's the most vulnerable? Who's the least likely to be believed? By the end of this kind of discussion, your jury is not expecting, you know, Mother Teresa to be up on the stand testifying that she was sexually assaulted. They understand that you probably don't have that kind of victim in this case, and that that's not likely anyway, right? That those aren't the kind of people that are really being targeted by predators. So your education with your fact finder starts at the beginning, but it doesn't end there. With the example I used earlier where I had that narcotics detective testify, it's a corroborating witness, so I knew in that case my vulnerability was the drug use of my victims. And why would they want to make it up? What do they get out of going to the hospital and getting a sexual assault kit if they weren't raped when they're trying to make money? Another way that you can educate the jury is by pulling in more information about your defendant. So one thing I like to do, especially with vulnerable populations like we're talking about, is to move the focus from the victim to the defendant. So like in the case of Stacey Belle, focus on who he selects, what's he doing out there? What are his behaviors? What's he looking for? What's he doing day to day? Pulling in other crimes or of your defendant showing his behavior, showing none of this would have happened without the defendant - the defendant's actions brings your audience, which is your jury, around to saying, "Oh yeah, we're here because he did something wrong, not because the victim did something wrong," you know, not because we're going to sit here and blame the victim for being out too late or, you know, walking alone down the street or all these things we think

victims shouldn't be doing. It doesn't matter that they were doing those things. It's the actions of the defendant that brings us here to the courtroom today.

Tyler Raible [00:18:14] That makes perfect sense. This is a little bit of a shift here, but I've been reading some research that indicates that male and transgender individuals are disproportionately likely to be assaulted.

Mary Weston [00:18:25] I am not surprised by that. I have read similar research that males and transgender victims are less likely to get sexual assault kits when they are assaulted. That research, I do believe it makes sense to me in terms of just like any vulnerable population, a population that is less likely to report the rape and less likely to be believed if they do report the rape. That makes sense to me, that tracks.

Tyler Raible [00:18:49] So why do you think that male and transgender victims are less likely to report?

Mary Weston [00:18:54] Well, in terms of males in particular, I guess I can say what I have learned through prosecuting these kinds of cases or investigating these kinds of cases with male victims, I notice a lot of self-doubt and a lot of self-blame based on gender stereotypes. Men believe that they should have been able to get out of the situation. They should have been able to fight their way out, that men don't submit. They're less likely to be comforted by someone telling them, "Well, of course you submitted because you could have been killed." They're less likely to - I mean, nobody likes the role of victim, but my impression in my experience is that men, more than anybody, don't want to be called a victim, right? So they worry that they also won't be taken seriously for those very same things. Right. They worry that juries are not going to think that they couldn't fight an attacker off. I think that causes men to not even want to report that to begin with and it would be the same reasons for a transgender victim as well, concerned that they won't be believed. A concern that they won't be taken seriously and maybe won't be prioritized, maybe would be made fun of - all of these I believe contribute to not reporting or underreporting and not getting the sexual assault kits.

Tyler Raible [00:20:04] And I'm sure that there's some myths associated with like the- the anatomical response, right? Isn't there an argument to be made that, well, if you weren't interested, you couldn't have gotten an erection - like that kind of conversation, right?

Mary Weston [00:20:16] Yes, I have seen that in cases where a man could be a victim of a sexual assault, and I've had defense attorneys say to me, "if he didn't want to do it, how could he have had an erection? How could he have ejaculated?" And you talked to medical personnel, and medical personnel will tell you that biologically, just because the victim, you know, had an erection or even ejaculated, it's a biological response - that does not mean this person enjoyed what was happening. Sometimes the body, it fails you, and it does things that don't make sense. And you can imagine the shame or confusion a man would feel if he is submitting to nonconsensual sex acts and his body is reacting in a certain way that the world believes signifies pleasure. And it causes even more embarrassment, confusion, and these kinds of cases are not prosecuted regularly. They still aren't - the culture around sexual assault, it's drastically better than it used to be. There's still room for improvement.

Tyler Raible [00:21:16] If you're in the situation where you- where you have to prosecute a case with a male or trans victim - how would you approach that?

Mary Weston [00:21:23] My focus would be on making a safe space for your victim. And that means a lot, though, it means making sure that your case is solid so that your victim will be part of it. So what I would do is corroborate everything I could with that case. I would find disclosure witnesses. I would find any other kind of witnesses that would corroborate all the little things that add up in a case. So recently, I had a case where a victim was robbed and raped. One of the things the robbers stole was the person's driver's license. So I went and got the DMV records showing the person got a new driver's license the following week. You know what I mean? It's just like the little things show to the jury like if the person made it up, where's the driver's license? It obviously is gone because they had to get a new one. These might be tiny things, but they corroborate things because you don't want your victim to have to come into- these are- they're already in a vulnerable position, right? They're already worried they're not going to believed, they're already worried that it's going to be hell to testify and be subjected to cross-examination. So corroborate every little thing you can with other witnesses and other evidence. I would also prepare that victim really well for trial and meet several times and prior to any sort of testimony, ask them questions like how they felt about reporting the crime, how they felt about going to the hospital, who in that process made them feel safe, who made them not feel safe? And I will bring that out in testimony. I think juries are not going to understand this unless it's told to them how these kinds of victims are treated from the get-go in a case like this. Who treated them well, who didn't treat them well? All the obstacles this victim had to overcome just to get where we are in front of a jury. What you're not saying is why would they do that if they were just making it up? You know what I mean? Like, this is quite a journey. They've had to tell how many different people about what happened to them. The police officer, the hospital personnel, maybe the EMS driver, maybe the sex crimes detective, maybe somebody from the Rape Crisis Center, maybe the prosecutor. By the time they're in front of the jury, I mean, how many other times have they had to say what happened to them, I would really kind of highlight that. I would also take testimony from people that are sympathetic to your victim. Friends and family members are good people to testify about how a crime affected a victim, what kind of changes they saw in the victim? You know, they've known your victim for 20 years, let's say, and they've never noticed the kinds of behaviors they started noticing after the assault. That was not the sister or brother that they know. Again, if somebody is making something up, they don't generally stop going outside at night after an assault or stop dating after an assault or quit their job because that's where the assault happened. And juries are more likely to believe victims that other people believe, too. When the victim's loved ones believe them, the people that know them the best, I think that that's good testimony to get in front of a jury and have them be able to assess and consider.

Tyler Raible [00:24:16] From what you described, especially the survivor's journey dealing with all these different people, having to retell their story, how do you think that this affects their, their willingness to stay engaged through the whole process?

Mary Weston [00:24:27] At least for my experience, you have people that are like this close - and I'm holding up my finger and my thumb - this close to falling off all the time. By the time we get a case as prosecutors, they've already had to tell so many people what happened to them. Right when the rape happens, that victim is hearing from a lot of people, and they're getting sometimes some support at that time. You know, they're getting the police officers following up with them. They're getting the hospital who's collecting evidence from them and treating them and maybe giving them some medication - like all that kind of stuff happens right at the beginning, and then sometimes victims don't hear anything for a while. You know, maybe the detective will follow up and say, I'm forwarding the case to the prosecutor, and then maybe they don't hear anything for a

while. By the time I get a case as a prosecutor, sometimes you're- you're fighting to get a victim reengaged, really. So we try as prosecutors and most prosecutors do this, try to get victims invested. I like to get them in, meet with them, and even just to get to know them maybe for the first meeting or two. It's really kind of the comfort level of the victim. I want them to trust me and to know that I'm fighting hard on their case, that I believe them, that I know these things happen. And you know, my job is to hold the people that did- do these things accountable. It can be really hard. And in fact, one thing that you'll see as prosecutors and victim advocates, investigators is the closer you get to trial, victims may fall off because it is becoming real for them that soon there may be a need to testify. So one of the things that was a learning curve for me is that that is trauma. So I would think, "Oh, you know, these victims are not answering my phone calls. All of a sudden she's just falling off. She must not care anymore." Well, it's not because the victim doesn't care anymore. It's trauma. Trauma is rearing its ugly head and causing victims to have difficulty coping with what's going on. Right. Trial is coming up, that means testimony. That means telling people what happened to them, and the fear of the verdict, right? The fear of the verdict being maybe they won't believe me. Maybe this will all come to nothing. And the defendant's going to be in court. You know, the defendant has a right to confront witnesses. He has a right to be in the courtroom. You know, that could be extremely hard for a victim. So it's hard. But all prosecutors can do is try to make their victims know and understand that the prosecutor is working every day on their case. I think it's important to keep victims involved in scheduling and keeping them updated, and that has been particularly hard with COVID. For instance, we had to kind of change tactics, and I started having the prosecutors here update victims about every single delay that the court put into place - if they were delaying jury trials, call your victims. Let them know we understand it's completely frustrating. You know, we brought this up after so many years, and now we're making them wait again, and try to find out what resources might help them with this further delay. What can we do? That has been hard. But it is- it is a challenge keeping victims engaged, Tyler. It is a challenge.

Tyler Raible [00:27:23] I can only imagine. I mean, you have people put in this horrific situation, and it's exacerbated by all of these other external factors. So Mary, is there anything coming up you're excited about? What's next for you?

Mary Weston [00:27:34] Well, we are doing some genealogy on some of our cases now. So like I said, we had over 800 indictments, but almost 200 of those were indictments where we knew the DNA profile on the evidence was the perpetrator's DNA, but we didn't have a hit to anybody, so we didn't have a known offender. So we indicted those as John Doe's to stop the statute of limitations because as I said earlier, we had a 20-year statute of limitations at the time and there- at that time, there was no extension of that statute of limitations with a DNA hit. So we were indicting John Doe indictments, and to be honest, we still do sometimes if we don't want something to fall off the radar, even though we now have that five-year extra period of time to investigate John Doe's if we get a hit, even if it's beyond the 25 years. So of those 180 now John Doe's, you have to imagine if we haven't gotten a hit, we're probably never going to get a hit. You know, it's probably somebody who's not going to, you know, they're hiding in plain sight. They're not going to be arrested. They're not going to have their DNA put into the database. Or, you know, maybe they're dead, frankly. So we were lucky enough to get some BJA SAKI funding starting in 2019 that we started using those funds to do genealogy research on those DNA profiles. And so we had sent 20 sexual assault cases to a genealogist, and we've solved five of them so far. But actually, it solved more than - I'm going to do the math now - it solves more than five sexual assaults because like one of them solved three - it was one DNA profile. He was linked to three crimes. Unfortunately, he was dead, but we were able to tell the victims

of the crimes, we know who did this to you. He's not out there on the street anymore. You're never going to see this guy again. So that was gratifying and valuable. Another guy was linked to two separate stranger rapes. He's in pretrial right now. Another guy was linked to one, another guy was linked to one. Another guy was linked to one. So it's five DNA profiles. But it solved eight cases so far, and we just sent nine more cases to our genealogy vendor. So we're hopeful to get some more solves. And by the way, we're also going to use some of this funding to do the same thing with homicide cases. We're looking through our homicide cases right now just to try to identify some where genealogy might be able to provide some leads. That's really exciting. It's something new, something our county has never done before, you know, use genealogy to try to solve crimes. We've used familial DNA in a few cases. This is our first time doing straight up genealogy, and it's very exciting.

Tyler Raible [00:29:57] It's incredibly exciting. So- and many of the guests that we've had on the show talk about how we're all collectively trying to do better, right - the situation was dire. It's always improving. Do you have any thoughts as to what could be done to encourage people to report to get the medical help they need, or maybe even engage with the criminal justice system?

Mary Weston [00:30:16] I mean, my message to individuals who have been sexually assaulted is to definitely report your crime and definitely go to the hospital. You know, people are more and more in a position to investigate these cases and take them seriously and do the kind of work that is needed for these kinds of cases. There has been such, such a swing in terms of our culture and how we interact and believe rape victims. We know more than ever how prevalent it is. We didn't- in ways that we never really knew or understood or believed or wanted to think about before. So my message to victims is, you know, we believe you. Prosecutors know this is happening. We believe it's happening to you and we want to hold offenders accountable. So no matter what happened to you, no matter what kind of act occurred or what kind of circumstances the sexual assault happened in, prosecutors and investigators are more trained than ever before to respond to these kinds of acts, to investigate them really well, and to prosecute to the fullest.

Tyler Raible [00:31:19] That's a great way to wrap up today. So I want to thank you, Mary, for sitting down with Just Science to discuss vulnerable populations and just, just for being here and the work that you do. So thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to sit down and talk to me.

Mary Weston [00:31:33] Tyler, it is always a pleasure. Thank you.

Tyler Raible [00:31:35] And for those of you listening at home, in the car, wherever you enjoy your podcasts, be sure to like and follow Just Science on your platform of choice. For more information on today's topic and resources in the forensic field, visit ForensicCOE.org. I'm Tyler Raible, and this has been another episode of Just Science.

Voiceover [00:31:54] Next week, Just Science sits down with Dr. Julie Valentine to discuss her recent research on sexual assault cases associated with dating apps and the prevalence of strangulation in sexual assault cases. Opinions or points of views expressed in this podcast represent a consensus of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official position or policies of its funding.