Just Addressing Child Sexual Violence

Introduction [00:00:05] Now this is recording, RTI International Center for Forensic Science presents Just Science.

Voiceover [00:00:18] Welcome to Just Science, a podcast for justice professionals and anyone interested in learning more about forensic science, innovative technology, current research, and actionable strategies to improve the criminal justice system. In episode four of our Perspectives on At-Home Sexual Assault Kits season, Just Science sat down with Laurieann Thorpe, the Executive Director at Prevent Childhood Abuse Utah, to continue our discussion on at-home sexual assault kits. Prevent Child Abuse Utah is a nonprofit organization dedicated to educating the public on preventing and responding to child sexual abuse. Listen along as Executive Director Thorpe discusses her career in childhood abuse prevention and response, and whether she believes at-home kits should play a role in addressing child sexual violence. This season is funded by the National Institute of Justice's Forensic Technology Center of Excellence. Some content in this podcast may be considered sensitive and may evoke emotional responses or may not be appropriate for younger audiences. Here's your host, Tyler Raible.

Tyler Raible [00:01:16] Hello and welcome to Just Science. I'm your host, Tyler Raible, with the Forensic Technology Center of Excellence, a program of the National Institute of Justice. Today we'll be continuing the conversation around at-home sexual assault kits and their impact on younger survivors. To help guide us in this discussion, I'm joined by our guest, Laurieann Thorpe, Executive Director of Prevent Child Abuse Utah. Laurieann, welcome to the podcast. It's great to see you.

Laurieann Thorpe [00:01:37] Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure to be here.

Tyler Raible [00:01:39] So, you are a highly respected subject matter expert in the field of pediatric medicine, child abuse, including sexual abuse cases. I know that you wear many hats, so can you tell us a little bit about, about what you do?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:01:51] So my role, Tyler, I'm the Executive Director of Prevent Child Abuse Utah. We have Prevent Child Abuse chapters across the nation. So, I work out of the state of Utah and my expertise is really in prevention of child abuse happening in the first place. So we try to really be ahead of trends and think about how to strengthen families to prevent child abuse from ever happening. So, that is most of my work, and why I'm very concerned about this topic.

Tyler Raible [00:02:19] Excellent. And that's one of the reasons that we're thrilled to have you on the show. We spend a lot of time talking about after care, investigation, and stuff of that nature, but we don't really have a lot of content on prevention, so it's- it's fascinating and I'm- I'm excited you're here. How did you get started in this?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:02:36] Prior to my work with Prevent Child Abuse Utah, I worked with the Division of Child and Family Services, and in my work there, I felt compelled to- to not only work at administrative level, but also on the front line so I became a foster parent. And I think the number one thing that drove me then from there to prevention is thinking about how can we really protect these kids from this happening in the first place? Because that is where we can really have an impact. I think it is so difficult to heal from trauma afterwards. I'm not saying it's impossible. It certainly is. And I've seen incredible resilience with the kids that have been in our home and the ones that have, have remained

permanently through adoption. And I think I just want to be part of the work that's protecting children from any and every angle. So that's what brought me to prevention because I feel so hopeful about the possibility that education and specific services can strengthen families in a way that really protects children.

Tyler Raible [00:03:42] I really appreciate that because it's, it's a great example of both walking the walk and talking the talk. So you mentioned education and services. I'm- I'm assuming that's kind of what Prevent Child Abuse Utah does - can you tell us a little bit more about the organization itself?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:03:56] I'd be happy to. So we have several programs that we run as an organization, some that I'm, well, I'm passionate about all of them. That is why I have the job. But some of the things that we really work on, we believe in home visiting for families. So we work with families who need extra support, and some are at-risk families who meet specific guidelines, but any family who wants home visiting can receive that depending on resources available in their area. So we are really passionate about providing home visiting because it really strengthens parents and gives them solid information about child development and appropriate discipline techniques. And just all kinds of, it just gives them so many tools, and it is an investment in their ability to parent, and we see such incredible outcomes for families who participate in home visiting. So that's a big win for us. We love home visiting. We'd love to see the ability to have that expanded across the nation, so that any family who would like that supportive service can have it. We love home visiting. We do a lot of outreach efforts just with educating the community. We wanna help parents understand how to talk to their kids, specifically about child sexual abuse, but about all forms of abuse, right? We need parents to be empowered and understand what they need to do and how to- there's a little bit of a fine balance, especially when talking to kids about child sexual abuse, because you have to be careful to eliminate shame and be able to educate at the same time. And so because you never know if it's already happened, so you have to be able to approach it in a way that kids don't feel more worried or blame themselves when an incident of sexual abuse has happened. So we really work hard to empower parents to understand the ways to approach their kids so that it's not scary and terrifying for kiddos and there isn't any shaming going on. We also work directly with kids and do educational programs to help them understand what child abuse is and that they have a right, and to listen to what feels okay to them and to report until they get help.

Tyler Raible [00:06:08] It definitely seems like the scope is pretty broad, but all of them sound, you know, exceptionally important. So this is, purely conjecture, I don't have anything to back this up, but I imagine that, you know, the, let's say, child rearing techniques, you know, raising children have changed dramatically over the years. So, there's probably like some breaking up of negative cycles and, and all that fun stuff too, right?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:06:31] One of the things that we find that's really interesting is that there tends to be a stigma against parents asking for help, which doesn't make any sense, because why would anyone who hasn't been a parent understand how to parent? There's this idea that once you have kids, you should just know what to do. But there's also, universally, I hear from parents, you're just gonna let me take this baby home from the hospital? I have no idea what I'm doing here, right? And so, we've really tried to step into that space and provide information and not just information, but really solid support, because sometimes as a parent, what you need is someone to say, that was a great job. You did that so well. Did you know that kids need that, and this is why, and this is why

you're helping them with that development. That level of expertise and having someone in your home saying, well done mom or dad, is such a big deal, and it shouldn't be embarrassing to ask for someone to be able to provide that feedback for you. In every other function in our lives, we get that kind of feedback. A lot of what parents receive is just sort of a negative social feedback about when things aren't going well, or you're not doing a good job as a parent, but you don't necessarily get that encouraging messaging from the beginning or a handbook. So I like to say that home visiting is a parenting handbook. So anyone who's looking for something like that, that's, that's where to find those answers.

Tyler Raible [00:07:58] I love it. So I can imagine that having a program to kind of enhance your support network is probably incredibly beneficial.

Laurieann Thorpe [00:08:06] Absolutely. And we just are so excited to be on the front lines of that work because when we can strengthen and support families to be strong in the first place, then child abuse and neglect never happens. I mean, it feels a little hard to quantify sometimes, because how do you show that you did something that was invisible? But that's exactly what we want, because when we're successful, kids have happy childhoods. And parents, you know, the stressors that they're under, when they feel supported and when they have resources to navigate the difficult things that come at them in life, then they are successful parents. It's just a natural outcropping of being able to have those social connections you mentioned that they need, and to have all of their physical needs met and their children's physical needs met. It's really a phenomenal work to be part of.

Tyler Raible [00:08:58] It definitely sounds like it. I'd like to transition our conversation here a little bit to really get into the, the bulk of today's topic. When we think about sexual assault cases, I think there's probably a tendency to kind of think about adult cases, but it's no mystery, sexual assaults occur against children as well. So before we really dive in, could you tell our audience, you know, besides the age of the survivor, how do child sexual assault cases differ from adult cases?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:09:25] Well, child sexual abuse cases, I think, are, maybe one of the nuances is simply the age, right? So, so there's no question, there's no, he said, she said. There's no, we know that if the child is younger than the age of consent, it's absolutely illegal. We have probably a more significant rate of non-reporting with kids than we do even with adults. We know that sexual assault is significantly underreported just in general, but with kids, what we find is that kids don't know. They don't know that what is happening to them is wrong or isn't what everyone is experiencing. If you think back on your own childhood, you can think of examples of something later as you grew up that you realized was odd, but you just took it for granted that everyone was experiencing the same thing. Just a silly example. I have two aunts and an uncle that were single that all lived together, and I thought everyone had two aunts and an uncle that were single and living together. I just thought that was how the world worked. And we see this all the time with the work that we do with kids, that until someone says to them, no one should be touching you this way or exposing you to this kind of imagery or asking you for photos of this kind, they don't realize that that experience is unusual. And so, so I think that's definitely one of the differences and nuances between, that we want to help kids understand and that it's a parent's responsibility to help their kids understand that it is not okay for those lines to be crossed and how to help them once that's happened.

Tyler Raible [00:11:10] You touched on this a little bit, and I, I think that since the- the range of- of ages is dramatic, how would something like their developmental stage of the survivor play into this?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:11:22] The developmental stage of the survivor, I definitely think impacts the understanding that a child may have about the appropriateness of what's happening. The younger the child is, or especially in the- kids with disabilities really are often targeted for child sexual abuse because they may be non-verbal or because they might be older, but they don't understand what's going on. So as a child develops and ages, then their understanding evolves. And, you know, by the time that they're teenagers or, or younger adults, they do understand, okay, what's happening to me isn't okay, or what happened to me when I was a child wasn't okay. You know, one thing that we see that's common is that the younger ages that experience child sexual abuse, as they get older, they're more likely to become victims of child sex trafficking. It's most often the case, that they will be abused by someone they know, whether that's sex trafficked or sort of a traditional child sexual abuse case. So all kids are at risk all the time. But as I think maybe as they, as they grow, those are some of the nuances of how the danger evolves.

Tyler Raible [00:12:32] So now that we've covered kind of the differences between child sexual assault and adult sexual assault, this season we've been- we've been talking about these at-home sexual assault kits. It's this- this concept of a- of a sexual assault evidence collection kit that's publicly available and intended for use at home, and it's not associated with a hospital or medical facility. Now, I know there's some legislation in Utah relevant to, to the topic, and I was hoping you could tell us a little bit about- about House Bill 168 and maybe some of the concerns or cautions you have surrounding these kits.

Laurieann Thorpe [00:13:05] So this was a legislative bill that came before the Legislature last year. We're about to go into our next legislative session, and they're, the sponsor from last year because of the outcome from last year, is not re-sponsoring the legislation this year, which is unfortunate. But yes, the bill was to ban the sale of these "do-it-yourself-kits", the at-home sexual assault kits. I have some very specific concerns, but I think as a state in general, there were- there were definitely concerns about how this would impact survivors and the ability of prosecutors to prosecute sexual assault cases. We're very concerned specifically as an organization about these sexual assault kits and the risk that they represent to children. There are broader, more sweeping reasons why the kits present danger to the broader public, but we'll just focus on what that means for kids. One of the things that we're concerned about is that, is abusers having access to these kits and having that be one of the ways that they abuse kiddos, right? We can see it being appealing to child sexual abusers. And so we're definitely, we're concerned about that. We're concerned about parents who receive disclosures of child sexual abuse. It is devastating for parents to receive a disclosure of child sexual abuse from their children, and it is often the case that parents will default to disbelief. And so one of our primary concerns is that in those circumstances, a parent may try to get a hold of one of these kits to prove or disprove the allegation that their child is making. And then using the kits will be its very own form of child sexual abuse. So this is not something we want to have happening. And then we're also concerned about as a child ages, we're concerned about parents or anyone who might want to use the sexual assault kits as a virginity test. And that's a real concern, too, because we do see in some communities and cultural traditions that value virginity, again, using the kits or requiring kids to use the kits will be sexual abuse.

Tyler Raible [00:15:29] Laurieann, it really sounds like there are some, some major threats that these kits kind of pose to supporting child survivors. Is it fair to say that, that these are potentially problematic?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:15:42] I believe it's an understatement to say that. I believe that these kits pose a secondary risk to kids who have experienced child sexual abuse, right? That in the use of the kits, they will be doubly victimized or in the case where they haven't been sexually abused, these kits might be used as tools to sexually abuse in the first place. So I think that there's no question in my mind that the kit posed a threat to children.

Tyler Raible [00:16:10] Laurieann, you mentioned a few of these types of issues, and I was hoping we could unpack them. So I think you mentioned, concern about the kit as a tool for perpetuating abuse, parents kind of taking matters into their own hands to maybe invalidate or deny a disclosure. So let's, let's unpack these a little bit.

Laurieann Thorpe [00:16:28] These are concerns that I have about how the kits could be misused. When a child is sexually abused, ninety percent of the time, it's by someone that the child knows and trusts. So that is 90 percent of the time that the parent usually knows and trusts the individual, right? So their first instinct when they know and trust someone is to think the child maybe misunderstood or to say, mmm, you know your uncle, that's my brother. He would never do that, right? And that's just an example. And so, when that's the circumstance, I worry very much that parents who don't believe would say, you know what, I know about this thing, I'm just gonna jump over to the pharmacy and grab one of these kits and we'll see. We'll see if you're telling the truth. And that is so problematic, and I think that really adds some harm to harm. So that's definitely a concern. And then, of course, the virginity test is, is another, you know, breach of trust between parents and child, where we're saying, we don't believe you, we don't trust you so let's check. You've seen how parents will say, okay, we have drug tests available to us, so we're gonna do at-home drug testing. It's the same kind of theme, right? You know, as a family, we have this value of virginity until marriage or what- or whatever. You can fill in the blanks a little bit on that. So we have the ability to make sure you're telling us the truth on this thing. And I think that that, that is, is a pretty big concern for me.

Tyler Raible [00:18:07] The kit sounds like it may compound the- the traumatization. Is that- is that fair to say?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:18:14] Absolutely. Because when there is an incident of child sexual abuse, there's a breach of trust, right? And that is when you do the work of healing from sexual assault, that is a pretty big obstacle. So then to compound it, you know, in the, in the last examples of parents kind of becoming involved and potentially misusing these kits, then you compound that with another breach of trust, you know, another sexual abuse incident. So absolutely, because it, it double victimizes the kiddos.

Tyler Raible [00:18:44] We talk a lot about being victim-centered and being trauma-informed. If you were to, to give some advice to a caregiver, a parent, or your, you know, any adult who suspects that a- a child is being sexually abused, what would- what would you advise to be the correct course of action, instead of these kits?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:19:03] So first of all, as with all sexual abuse reporting, the number one thing is to default to belief. Believe the child from the beginning. That is critical to their- when we talk with survivors, they talk about that moment of disclosure and we coach parents how to put away their disbelief and suspend their reaction, because it's hard to

receive a disclosure. But doing something like this, [gasp] ohhhhh, uh-uh, or no, no, no, no, you misunderstood, does so much damage as well. So, so we really talk with parents about the way to be trauma informed is that when a child talks to you about this, you put away your reaction until later. You get to have that. I mean, it's a big deal when a child talks to you about this, that, and you, you love the child and you want to protect them and you're having your own feelings about, I didn't protect them, right? Or, no way would my husband or, you know, someone that I love do this to you. All of that has to be put aside during that conversation. And then the child has to be reassured that you will be protecting them from that ever happening again and that you, you believe them and you're gonna move forward together and you, you will keep them safe. So those are kind of the key things to help a child in the moment of disclosure.

Tyler Raible [00:20:34] Excellent. Thank you. And in the, in kind of a similar vein, as far as supporting the children, in particular the survivors of sexual assault, I imagine there's, there's got to be like a pretty good list of preventative procedures. Could you talk a little bit about some of the things that you would recommend, that either caregivers engage in or even, you know, maybe, maybe older children who are a little more cognizant of what's going on?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:21:02] We talk with parents about making sure that they talk early and often, earlier than you want to and more often than- than is comfortable. We talk all the time about getting comfortable being uncomfortable in this conversation with kids. The number one thing that parents can do to protect and prevent child sexual abuse is talking with their kids early and often, so that kids understand what's happening before it happens and can tell quickly or get out of the situation if possible, right? It's never the child's responsibility, so we have to be careful about the way that we talk to kids about it, right? On a really fundamental level, we talk to kids about listening to their "uh-oh" feeling, "say no" and "go tell", right? But kids need to understand that although they have the ability to say no, if they don't, it's not their fault. Right? And so that needs to be part of the conversation from the beginning with parents. And it's part of healthy sexual health development, right, is talking to kids, helping educate them, it's a really critical part of a parent's role. And there are great resources out there for how to walk through these conversations in a way that will be really relationship-building and help to protect kids. So, earlier and oftener, get comfortable being uncomfortable, always use correct anatomical body language, and normalize the conversation around sexual health. It really helps too, to have a good idea, know and understand what is sexually appropriate for the age of the child, and that will help you understand what terminology to use with the child as well. If you know that it's perfectly appropriate for them to be sexually curious in this way at this age, then you can have a conversation about that and talk about, okay, this is, it's appropriate for you to feel this way right now, and this is how we do this in a socially acceptable way. Um, or this is why you're feeling that way for a time that will come later. Right? So that you can really set up a good framework for kids about sexual health that is devoid of shame and helps them understand from the beginning that you are a person that's safe to talk to about this, in case anything ever happens.

Tyler Raible [00:23:26] It really sounds like there's, there's this significant level of trust building and avoiding these kind of victim-blaming tendencies. Do you have any resources that you recommend to kind of implement some of these, these things that you were talking about?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:23:40] We are currently working as an organization on a parent kit that parents can use with tip sheets to talk to kiddos, and a book that goes along with that

to kind of read side-by-side with, with the child and scientifically approved things that we really feel good about giving to parents, so that they can navigate these conversations. We're still working on making those available, but, but we are actively working on that. Some resources that I really like are Prevent Child Abuse America, Prevent Child Abuse Utah, and then we, there's also Darkness to Light is a website that has some really good information about child sexual abuse and how to talk to kids. And there's also some website resources called hot chocolate talks, and those are some really fun ways to introduce the topic and moments when you can catch parent and child interactions, where it's a good time to kind of sit down and naturally bring these things up and be able to process those with kiddos. But I would say this is not a rule of thumb, and not something I have read anywhere, but I, I really think that if you think that you're talking to your kids often enough, then up your game and do it more often than that.

Tyler Raible [00:24:51] I love it. I can, this is a complete aside, but I remember, you know, when I was a child, my parents having "the talk." And I think the talk was 15 minutes, one time. So yeah, I can imagine that this additional, maybe multiple additional levels of, of engagement and re-engagement on the topic is probably long-term gonna be really, really beneficial to, to healthy development.

Laurieann Thorpe [00:25:18] It just, you can't overstate how important it is to be that safe person for a kid. One of the things we talk to kids about is identifying at least five people that they do trust, that they can talk to in case anything ever happens to them. And you've got to get a pretty deep bench to get to five, right? We got, we got parents and teacher, and then we still got to get two more, right? So we really try to help them identify, and then we say over and over, keep asking for help until you get help. That's something that's really important because research shows that a child will generally have to disclose, I'm forgetting the exact statistic, but I think three times before they're believed. So that is an important element to cover with kids to make sure that they have a lot of people that they can trust so that if one doesn't believe, they can go to the next person.

Tyler Raible [00:26:11] I think that's excellent advice. And- and Laurieann, we are kind of nearing the end of our time together, so I- I wanted to know what's next for you. You mentioned these parent kits. Is there anything else coming up that you're excited about, any projects or events that you might wanna give a shout out to?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:26:28] We are really excited about the kits so, you know, listeners, stay tuned and we'll get those, we'll get those going soon. I think in the state of Utah, we're really excited about expanding the ability and accessibility for home visiting. And I think in, in the nation, that's a conversation that's happening too, that we want to make home visiting more widely available and really just help parents to understand it's okay to need some help and there is help available. So you don't have to feel like you got to do this all on your own, or do it, you know, with only the help of Instagrammers - nothing against our influencing friends - but there is some idea that we should be perfect without any education or training to even be good. Nope, we can put down the idea that we need to be perfect, and we can get better if we seek help.

Tyler Raible [00:27:21] I love it. Laurieann, you've mentioned Prevent Child Abuse Utah. I'm guessing, and I'm sure you can correct me if I'm wrong, that this is a national effort. So in that vein, are there any final thoughts you'd like to share with our listeners?

Laurieann Thorpe [00:27:35] One final thought that I wanted to highlight is just that across the nation, if one of your children does experience child sexual abuse, there are

child advocacy centers across the nation that specialize in forensic interviewing for children. They have specialized technical equipment that actually is really cool for kids, that doesn't require an invasive assault kit like the ones that will be available. They can do it with non-touch, and they can do the exams, and they can take care of your kiddos in a really specialized way. So I would highly recommend that you look into those child advocacy centers, and then they can hook you up with resources for counseling and therapy and whatever your child needs as they go through this process.

Tyler Raible [00:28:18] Excellent. Thank you. And with that, we do have to wrap up the episode. So first and foremost, I'd like to thank Laurieann for sitting down with Just Science to discuss at-home sexual assault kits and their impact on child victims. So, Laurieann, thank you so much.

Laurieann Thorpe [00:28:32] It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Tyler Raible [00:28:34] And for those of you listening at home, on your drive, or wherever you listen to podcasts, if you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to like and follow Just Science in your podcast platform of choice. For more information on today's topic and resources in the forensic field, visit ForensicCOE.org. I'm Tyler Raible, and this has been another episode of Just Science.

Voiceover [00:28:54] Next week, Just Science sits down with Scott Mourtgos, the deputy chief of Salt Lake City Police Department, to provide analysis on at-home sexual assault kits from a law enforcement perspective. Opinions or points of views expressed in this podcast represent a consensus of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official position or policies of its funding.